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Transcript of
Two Acts of Censorship
Learn the rules. Then learn how to break them.
—Larina
Larwar, Censoring Moderator of the Academy of American Poets
Feel free to
politely continue the discussion.
—Christine Klocek-Lim,
Censoring Site
Manager of the Academy of American Poets
Politeness, n. The most acceptable hypocrisy.
—Ambrose Bierce
It does matter that people have the
right to take an argument to the point where somebody is offended by what they
say. It's no trick to support the free speech of somebody you agree with or to
whose opinion you are indifferent. The defense of free speech begins at the
point when people say something you can't stand. If you can't defend their right
to say it, then you don't believe in free speech. You believe in free speech
only as long as it doesn't get up your nose. But free speech does get up
people's noses.
—Salman Rushdie
Below, in red letters, are the
precise moments where it was decided that all my entries be eliminated as if
they had never been made, as if I simply didn't exist as a critic. Notice
how Simon Perchik responds to praise, but ignores my critique entirely.
The following transcript has not been altered in any way whatsoever.
Fortunately, I copied it prior to the two acts of censorship.
Moderator Larina Larwar:
Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:45 am Post subject: July/August 2007: Guest
Member - Simon Perchik
Over the last couple months, I've had the great pleasure of conversing with
Simon Perchik through email. As a poet, Simon's work is often filled with
contradictory images and ideas. It is difficult poetry--poetry that requires the
reader to look beyond themselves for answers. As a person, Simon is a terrific
conversationalist--one of those people that really hears what you say. I asked
Simon if he would be willing to make an appearance here at poets.org and much to
my surprise, he agreed. Without further ado, here are his materials:
Bio: Simon Perchik is an attorney whose poems have appeared in
Partisan Review, The New Yorker, and elsewhere. Family of Man
(Pavement Saw Press) and Rafts (Parsifal Editions) are both scheduled for
publication 2007. For more information, including his essay “Magic, Illusion and
Other Realities” and a complete bibliography, please visit his website at
www.geocities.com/simonthepoet.
Poems of which he says "They are of course no [sic] only my favorites, but my
best. (It has to be that way, else I couldn't go on.)
*
Even the colors are anxious, carried
as if its new home above ground
would skimp the way all rows use dirt
cut in two with nothing in between
–you suddenly bring it a darkness
use one hand to comfort the other
though you’ve done all this before
have no faith in mornings :clumps
that want only to forget, just lie still
holding one end close, for a long time
sorted out and unfamiliar fields
taken place to place in flowers
in ribbons, string, thread, something
feeble, tied to the dissolving Earth
by this shadow and your arms.
*
As if the paint poured across
could stave off rot, circle down
though this gate heads back
once it leaves your arms –by itself
whitening the trees already stone
certain you will come here forever
bring twigs, let them sweeten
soften on the ground you bite into
struggling to float, unable to breathe
or unfasten her skirt –your mouth
oozing the way mornings arrive
to dry, kept moist by these dead
and berries dressed as roots and grass
surrounded, filled with the taste
from her eyelids not yet flowers.
*
This rotted log yes and no
longs for the stillness
that is not wood though you
are already inside, seated
at a table, a lamp, clinging
the way all light arrives alone
except for the enormous jaws
once shoreline closing in
without water or suddenness
–you lay down a small thing
and the Earth is surrounded, fed
slowly forehead to forehead again.
*
You reach for lullabies, left over
and the slow crawl half whispers
half where your lips ache, float
the way this empty cup still wobbles
will break apart, overloaded
disguised as two steps closer and alone
then fill your arms with its darkness
seeping through, breathing out
not yet an embrace, not yet the mouth
where your fingers end, surrounded
by more and more dirt, a small room
here, there, there, not yet asleep.
*
It’s never dry –another gust
though this elevator is carried
the way you count backward
for hours and the door flies open
lets in a sea half hillside
half rising through the floor
–you walk in to sleep, begin
with the sound sand makes
when scattered for footprints
still following the silence
between 10, then 0, pressed
against your face –tides
are used to this, start out
to forgive, then lay down
as emptiness and a home.
*
Though it gets dark earlier and earlier
you were already weakened at birth
–without a shrug let go things
the way each grave is graced
used to being slowly moved along
blossom and in your mouth
a somewhat pebble half fruit
half sweetened, not yet
broken apart in your throat
–you can’t make out where in the turn
you are clinging to its path
that led you here, not yet strong enough
or longing for some riverside or rain
or the night by night, warm
still falling off your hands.
A Brief Word of Advice to Beginners
Read everything that's out there. You can't write anything original if you don't
know what's been done already. And, as a beginner, if you are hopelessly lost,
you could do worse than write your poems the way I write mine. For that you have
to read "Magic, Illusion and Other Realities."
On Poetics
an excerpt from "Magic, Illusion, and Other Realities"
Where do writers get their ideas? Well, if they are writing prose, their ideas
evolve one way. If, on the other hand, they are writing poetry, their ideas
evolve another way. Perhaps some distinctions are in order. Distinguishing the
difference between prose and poetry may not be all that simple; there are many
definitions, all of which may be correct. For the purpose of this essay allow me
to set forth one of the many:
It seems to me that there is available to writers a spectrum along which to
proceed. At one end is prose, appropriate for essays, news, weather reports and
the like. At the other end is poetry. Writers moves back and forth along this
spectrum when writing fiction.
Thus, prose is defined by its precise meaning that excludes ambiguity, surmise
and misunderstanding. It never troubles the reader. To define it another way,
prose is faulty if it lacks a coherent thrust guided by rules of logic, grammar
and syntax. It will not tolerate contradiction. Poetry, on the other hand, is
defined by its resistance to such rules. Poetry is ignited, brought to life by
haunting, evasive, ambiguous, contradictory propositions.
This is not to say poetry is more or less useful than prose. Rather, they are
two separate and distinct tools, much the same as a hammer and a saw. They are
different tools designed for different jobs. If an essay is called for, the
reader wants certainty; exactly what the words you are now reading are intended
to give. If, on the other hand, consolation for some great loss is called for,
the reader needs more: a text that lights up fields of reference nowhere alluded
to on the page. This calls for magic, for illusion, not lecture. To be made
whole the reader needs to undergo an improved change in mood, a change made more
effective if the reader doesn't know why he or she feels better. Exactly like
music. That's where poetry gets its power to repair; an invisible touch,
ghost-like but as real as anything on earth. A reading of the masters, Neruda,
Aleixandre, Celan...confirms that a text need not always have a meaning the
reader can explicate. To that extent, it informs , as does music, without what
we call meaning. It's just that it takes prose to tell you this.
Read the rest
here.
Simon is very interested in conversation about this essay. Whether you agree or
disagree, I encourage you to post your thoughts about it here. There are several
interviews also available on his web site that are of interest. The Baratier
interview is my personal favorite because it discusses Simon's rather unusual
creative process. Simon also sent me an interview on DVD in which he discusses
his process and the viewer is given a treat--to hear the poem read after seeing
the photograph that inspired it. I tried to get this interview up on my web
site, but was unfortunately unable to do so. If you are interested in viewing
it, I have obtained permission from Simon to make copies of the DVD and would be
happy to mail a copy to you. Just send me a private message with a mailing
address.
_________________
~Larina
Learn the rules. Then learn how to break them.
Moderator Larina Larwar:
Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:48 pm Post subject:
Simon, I've read
your essay a few times now and one thing sort of bothers me about this idea that
poetry and prose are two distinctly separate tools and that poetry is more apt
toward the subconscious. I've read a number of "experimental" memoirs, short
stories, and even novels, that eschew concrete detail for the purpose of making
the reader dive into their subconscious and come up with their own
interpretations, answers, or questions. I think we've all read poetry that
utilizes primarily a narrative technique and in contemporary poetry, we as poets
are told that concrete details are an absolute necessity. How do you view this
discrepancy in the idea that prose tells more than poetry? Put another way: How
do you view the idea that poetry should tell as much as prose does in fewer
words?
_________________
~Larina
Learn the rules. Then learn how to break them.
Simon Perchik. Posted: Mon
Jul 02, 2007 3:36 pm Post subject:
Larina, This is
my first attempt to "work" this site so forgive me if all does not go well. I
don't have the text to your question in front of me so I may not respond to all
you asked. If that turns out the case send on another note and I'll try
again.The response (am sure it's not an answer, just a response) is that words
have more power if they inform without lecturing the reader. No matter how
stunning the language you short change the readers if you spell out everything
and leave nothing for them to put together. The power of poetry, it seems to me,
comes from its ablilty to create thoughts in the reader that are nowhere
expressed on the page. Hope that makes sense. Let me know. Best, Si.
Moderator Larina Larwar:
Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:01 pm Post subject:
You did a fine
job answering my question without the text in front of you, Si. In the future,
though, you can use your scroll bar to see the last message on the thread in
full. It's just below the view of the screen.
I think I have to draw some kind of line between lecturing and enlightening (boy
does that sound pretentious!). I think there's value in spelling
something out for the reader sometimes because they are coming at it from a
different perspective and part of our job as poets (or writers of any sort) is
to help someone look at something a little differently than they normally would.
At the same time, I think the use of symbolism and metaphor is vastly under-used
in contemporary poetry. I see comments sometimes wondering why, for example, a
poem about Japan utilizes a lotus flower. I'd like to see readers looking more
closely at poetry and trying to see those things that exist under the surface of
the text. I'm not convinced, though, that some prose does not work in the
same way.
Now see...I suckered you in here just so I could argue with you.
All my best,
~Larina
Papaya. Posted: Tue Jul 03,
2007 5:17 pm Post subject:
Hello Simon,
The poems that you chose for this forum seem to me to have a very jazz-like,
syncopated rhythm, with a sort of music-colour synthesia: is that intentional on
your part or one of those things that happen to good poetry when it's let loose
on the world? I ask this, because I've just finished reading your 1999 interview
in Jacket magazine where you said that your opening lines are Beethoven
chords--several years down the road is that still the case or do you draw your
influences elsewhere these days? And--a completely different question--how do
you KNOW when a poem is ready--do you have a sounding board or do you go by your
own instinct completely?
Papaya
Simon Perchik. Posted: Wed
Jul 04, 2007 9:29 pm Post subject:
Papaya, Thanks so
very much for writing. Am flattered that you read the Baratier interview and
that you remembered it. Your questions are very insightful . First, Yes, the
rhythms are intentional. I even use the "misplaced" colon to create (in addition
to a metaphor) a jolting rhythm: an impact rather than a braking effect. The
Beethoven chords are for the rhythm but I steal his music for its surpises too.
And yes, I still steal from him. As for when do I know if a poem is finished?
The same way a parent knows when a teenage child is ready to go it alone; When
both are sick of eachother. Hope I answered your questions If not, or if my
answers raised other questions , let me know and we'll take it from there.
Again, thanks for writing. Si.
Papaya. Posted: Thu Jul 05,
2007 5:13 pm Post subject:
Hello Simon,
Thanks very much, yes, you did answer my questions.
I've been thinking about your essay "Magic, Illusion and Other Realities" and
the difference between prose and poetry. Would I be correct in saying that by
prose you mean factual or journalistic writing, writing which by definition
cannot be ambiguous in its meaning? But what about fiction? That's prose too,
isn't it? James Joyce, Salman Rushdie, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Lawrence
Durrell--their writing is poetic, but it isn't poetry. The way I see it, the
basic difference is that poetry is music made up just of words. If there's a
melody to it, it's poetry, if there isn't, then no matter how magical or
poetical, it's prose. Or is that too simplistic?
Looking forward to hearing your take on it--and thanks again for being here and
taking the time to answer questions like mine
Papaya
Ike Vallon. Posted: Fri Jul
06, 2007 10:18 am Post subject: Poetry, Prose and Simon Perchik
These
representative poems, Mr. Perchik, are poetic gems! They are haunting,
mysterious, mystical and powerful. Although there are those who attempt to blur
the distinction between poetry and prose, I have no trouble distinguishing
between the two; yours is poetry at its best. Before the advent of free and
blank verse, it was easy to distinguish between poetry and prose: the latter had
rhyme and meter, and each was pretty strictly defined by rules; prose did not.
With the advent of free verse, the task became more difficult. Nevertheless,
your poetry, Mr. Perchik, surely reveals the difference. Poetry is essentially a
rhythmic stream of images, metaphors and similes. Unlike prose, its principal
purpose is not to "tell a story", nor to "develop a character". Poetry eschews
character development and plot, as such. It is more an "impression" and a
"feeling" conveyed by the use of words in a "magical" sense, through rhythm and
imagery. Your poetry is powerful, lyrical, mystical and abstract, causing a
cascade of emotions in the reader, whatever your conscious intent may (or may
not) have been, which leaves the reader emotionally impacted, perhaps in ways
the reader understands, but perhaps without an identifiable understanding. No
matter. It reaches into the reader's soul or unconscious, and hits a "nerve".
Something in the reader is changed by the poem, whether known or unknown. But
one thing is sure, such wonderful poetry as yours, Mr. Perchik, has power,
beauty and affects the deepest recesses of our being. That is what makes your
poetry great.
Joel Chace. Posted: Fri Jul
06, 2007 7:48 pm Post subject:
Si:
So glad you are doing this. You know that I have been a huge fan for many years!
Have been reading your "Milton Poems" recently, and--as always--admire
your writing.
To what extent, if any, do you feel directed by Zukovsky & Oppen?--poem
as thing, material, as sound, as music? And by Reznikoff--poem as
testimony/testament?
All Best,
Joel Chace
Simon Perchik. Posted: Sat
Jul 07, 2007 6:04 pm Post subject:
Joel, Good to
hear from you. Been a long time. And thanks for the kind words about the Milton
Poems. Milton, incidentally, was a photographer who was also the editor of the
South Dakota Review. I used his photographs to generate the poems. About
Zukovsky and Oppen, I not sure about their work. A poet named Mike Heller is the
expert. But I do have a strong opinion of Charles Reznikoff. I think he is
America's best poet. Now, listen to this: a few months back when I was
inteviewed by the Univ. of Kentucky Law Review the name Reznikoff came up (he
was a lawyer). Then Mitchell McInnis <tzutjan@yahoo.com> writes about my take of
Reznikoff. Now, you. I hope this portends a revival of his poetry. He shouldn't
have to wait 400 years like Blake. I hope our discourse here encourages others
to read Reznikoff. Again, thanks for writing. And please stay in touch. Si.
Enmarge [i.e., G. Tod
Slone]. Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:37 am Post subject: Perchik Poem
The poem is
tedious, unoriginal, and utterly lacking in RISK. It is the kind of poem no
doubt favored by established-order literati and organizations. American poetry
will simply get worse and worse and more and more conformist and herd-like if
the established-order continues to keep its doors hermetically sealed to outside
criticism and poetry that risks, risks the very ire of established-order
literati. The backslapping, self-congratulating, and icon creating and
worshipping must STOP! The absolute lack of questioning and challenging in the
milieu must STOP! How many poets, created by the established-order machine,
actually possess the individuality (as opposed to herd-conformity) to pose the
simple question: who were the judges who anointed Perchik Poetaster of the
Month? How many poets, created by that machine, actually let their lives "be a
counterfriction to stop the machine" (Thoreau) and dare "go upright and vital,
and speak the rude truth in all ways" (Emerson)?
For an alternative to Perchik's tediously bland essay, try
http://www.theamericandissident.org/ColdPassion.htm.
Best,
G. Tod Slone, Editor
The American Dissident, a journal of critical writing
www.theamericandissident.org
Moderator Gary Wilkens.
Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:59 am Post subject:
To answer your question, G.
Tod:
Forum Moderators:
Christine (chrissiekl) —SiteAdmin
Gary (G.Wilkens) — Poetry Criticism & Reviews, On Writing & Craft, Poem Sparks,
Publishing, MFA Programs, Poetry 401
Diana (dmanister) — Poetry Criticism & Reviews
Stephen (sbunch) — Poetry 301
Catherine (rogersc) — Poetry 201
Larina (Larwar) — Poetry 201, Poem Sparks
Dave (hatrabbit) — Poetry 101
Cynthia (CynN) — Roving
Linz (girlypoet) — Roving
_________________
"Poetry gives us knowledge. It is a knowledge of ourselves in relation to the
world of experience, and to that world considered, not statistically, but in
terms of human purposes and values. ”
— Cleanth Brooks and Robert Penn Warren
Hatrabbit Dave Rowley.
Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:14 am Post subject:
enmarge, [i.e., G. Tod
Slone]
'The backslapping, self-congratulating, and icon creating and worshipping must
STOP! The absolute lack of questioning and challenging in the milieu must STOP!
How many poets, created by the established-order machine, actually possess the
individuality (as opposed to herd-conformity) to pose the simple question: who
were the judges who anointed Perchik Poetaster of the Month? How many poets,
created by that machine, actually let their lives "be a counterfriction to stop
the machine" (Thoreau) and dare "go upright and vital, and speak the rude truth
in all ways" (Emerson)? '
Thanks for telling us what to think and do.
Honestly, nothing in your comments signals to me that you gave any thought to
reading the poem or the essay. Your criticisms are sweeping and really serve
only as a platform to spruik your potted message of dissent.
Dissent for dissent's sake is just as blind as 'herd-conformity', and stinks of
self-righteousness to boot.
Simon demonstrated a willingness to discuss his essay and poetry, why don't you
risk something and give some thought in your critique of his work instead of
cutting and pasting from your manifesto.
Dave
_______________
"Tell me about the dream where we pull the bodies out of the lake / and dress
them in warm clothes again" Richard Siken
Enmarge. Posted:
Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:40 am Post subject: A sad response to hard critique...
What a sad
response, oh educated Moderators! Well, I give you credit for not going
anonymous...
Enmarge. Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:44 am Post subject: Ah, the
politician's poet!
Dave,
What a wonderful politician's non-response to my questions. Let's hope for
democracy's sake that you're not teaching college. Allow me to pose those
questions again. Maybe you'll come up with another politician's non-response.
"How many poets, created by the established-order machine, actually possess the
individuality (as opposed to herd-conformity) to pose the simple question: who
were the judges who anointed Perchik Poetaster of the Month? How many poets,
created by that machine, actually let their lives "be a counterfriction to stop
the machine" (Thoreau) and dare "go upright and vital, and speak the rude truth
in all ways" (Emerson)?"
www.theamericandissident.org
……………………………………………………………………………………………………
Email received from Site
Manager Christine Klocek-Lim.
enmarge,
Apparently you haven't read our
Posting & Conduct
Guidelines. Therefore, let me enlighten you: if you continue to post
inflammatory statements which essentially amount to advertising for your
website, your posts will be deleted. From the Guidelines:
# Do not post spam or advertisements. Site admin and moderators will remove
these posts immediately.
# Do not post offensive material. Avoid language or statements that can be
considered pornographic, racist, threatening, inflammatory, hateful, insulting,
or violent. While we value freedom of expression, we also value the comfort and
sanctity of this space for everyone. We expect that certain topics may lead to
contention and debate, and will not prevent users from expressing their
opinions, as long as they can be articulated and debated in a rational, calm,
and informed manner.
# Show respect for the Poets.org community. Do not bait or flame your fellow
users, or engage in personal attacks.
If you would like to engage in discussion regarding poetry, poets, and poetics,
please do so in the
Just Conversation
section of the forum.
_________________
—Christine, Site Admin—
CENSORED
At this precise point, I went to post my response to the
evocation of the RULES, but my entries
were removed as were any comments referring to them... and I was not permitted to
post any more.
From: Chrissiekl
To: Enmarge
Date: Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:26 pm
Subj: Moved posts
You posts regarding Perchik's
poem have been moved to the Just Conversation section (two posts got lost in the
shuffle, unfortunately):
http://www.poets.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12111
Feel free to politely continue the discussion.
_______________
—Christine, Site Admin—
From: enmarge
To: Chrissiekl
Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:48 pm
Subj: moved posts
So not just a censor now, but
also a liar?! Got "lost," huh? What a sad joke. You owe me an apology! I am
currently looking into the legalities of your arbitrary action of censorship
with my regard as an American citizen. I want those posts in proper position
and my last post also posted in proper position NOW… the one critical of your
Guidelines. You should know better that as a nonprofit org you are legally
required to hold open forums, open to all citizens including critical ones like
me. The American Dissident is also a non profit org, but unlike you and the
Academy, it does not fear criticism. You have left me fully disgusted.
G. Tod Slone, Editor
The American Dissident
www.theamericandissident.org
....................................................................................................................................................
Moderator
Gary Wilkens. Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:50 am Post subject:
I will answer your questions
directly:
"How many poets, created by the established-order machine, actually possess
the individuality (as opposed to herd-conformity) to pose the simple question:
who were the judges who anointed Perchik Poetaster of the Month?
Me, and all the folks who planned it and put it together. Also, all the folks
who have read the "Member of the Month & Guest Poet Guidelines":
http://poets.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11850
"The Guest Member will be chosen by their overall contribution to poetry and
what they have to offer this forum. We will not be looking specifically at
"Internet poets," but rather at poets, wherever they might come from, that have
something to offer in the way of learning about some aspect of poetry. These
folks may or may not actively contribute to conversations throughout their term.
The important thing is that they provide a starting point for critical
conversation. This section is still under development and may not start
precisely at the same time as the "Member of the Month" section. Members who
believe a particular person might be a good fit for this should send their
recommendation, as well as contact information, to Larina (Larwar –
larina76@msn.com)
or Christine (chrissiekl)."
How many poets, created by that machine, actually let their lives "be a
counterfriction to stop the machine" (Thoreau) and dare "go upright and vital,
and speak the rude truth in all ways" (Emerson)?"
This is hard to answer, because
1) it's not really a question, it's an ideologiocal statemtent in the form of a
question.
2) it's made up of quotes
3) none of its terms are defined
But, here's at least one
_________________
"Poetry gives us knowledge. It is a knowledge of ourselves in relation to the
world of experience, and to that world considered, not statistically, but in
terms of human purposes and values. ”
— Cleanth Brooks and Robert Penn Warren
Emurer. Posted: Fri Jul 06,
2007 11:51 am Post subject:
I had The American Dissident from my list of possible rags to submit to,
but I guess I can scratch it.
Esther
Moderator Larwar. Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:54 pm Post subject:
emurer wrote: “I had The American Dissident from my list of possible
rags to submit to, but I guess I can scratch it.”
Ditto.
_________________
~Larina
Learn the rules. Then learn how to break them.
Moderator
Hatrabbit Dave Rowley. Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:12 pm Post subject:
enmarge,
Or maybe, the Academy ought to simply stifle my voice, censor me out of
existence! Wouldn't that be so much better?
That won't happen. The Academy merely hosts this site for people who are
interested in writing, critiquing, discussing poetry. They couldn't be bothered
checking in to stifle any debates that don't fit their agenda. That's not how
they operate despite your imaginings. You'll be happy to know that I don't teach
at any college, one reason being that I don't have a college degree. If you've
set this site up as some great political monster that you need to save the rest
of civilisation from, then you've made a big mistake. I'd say most of the
thousands of members here are not teaching poetry in colleges or anywhere else.
This is not part of the machine.
As to my previous response not addressing your points adequately, that was
because you didn't really make any. All you did was acknowledge a poem and an
essay had been written, dismiss both, then spew your ideology all over our
forum. Say something that shows you're actually engaging with anything on this
site and I'd be happy to respond to it.
I can't believe you charged someone with not taking a risk and then followed
that up by hiding behind the words of two other men. That's being
political--building a strawman then taking pot-shots while hiding behind a
poorly thought through ideology.
Give us a break.
_________________
"Tell me about the dream where we pull the bodies out of the lake / and dress
them in warm clothes again" Richard Siken
Enmarge. [G. Tod Slone]. Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:58 pm Post subject:
You all sadly need a lesson in the first amendment and the illegality of speech
codes! Here is my response to your Speech Code, the one the moderator said she
lost. In any case, I was immediately censored from the forum, all my postings
removed. The following letter evidently shook up the Poet Censor (s). Read
clearly, for you might learn something. Maybe Perchik will learn something,
since he doesn't seem to give a damn!
Censored (Lost!) Posting:
It is utterly astonishing to me that the Academy of American Poets would
THREATEN to censor my discourse because it is not sufficiently happy-face,
backslapping, and congratulatory! What a great way to THREATEN to censor a poet
who thinks differently from the Academy poet herd by claiming he is not abiding
by the RULES of CONDUCT. I suppose Ginsberg, one of your Beatnik members,
approved those “Conduct Guidelines”? I have not used four-letter words. Hell,
think of all of the ones he used! I am not posting Spam or Advertisements. He
was a virtual walking advertisement. The term “OFFENSIVE MATERIAL” is entirely
subjective and a most SHAMEFUL way for intelligent people to censor and kill
VIGOROUS DEBATE! Doesn’t being a member of a child-pedophilia organization
constitute “offensive”? Wasn’t Ginsberg a member of such an organization? I have
not threatened anybody at all. “INFLAMMATORY, HATEFUL, INSULTING” are but more
subjective terms, easily evoked to kill vigorous HEALTHY debate. “While we value
freedom of expression, we also value the comfort and sanctity of this space for
everyone.” Well, the space is no longer very comfortable to me! Will any Academy
poets come to my defense, come to the defense of free speech and expression, and
valid critique, cornerstone of democracy? “RATIONAL, CALM, AND INFORMED MANNER”
are more such subjective terms. It is incredible to me that educated poets could
have enacted such “Conduct Guidelines,” which echo uncannily the very
speech-code guidelines enacted by far too many universities… to suppress free
speech and vigorous debate. By the way, legal decision after decision have
struck down those codes. Please, before you censor me for the simple reason that
I have failed to be indoctrinated as a friendly poet in implicit conformity with
our nation’s politically-correct happy-face fascistic mentality, EXAMINE THE
FOLLOWING QUOTE issued by constitutional lawyer Greg Lukianof, president of the
Foundation for Individual Rights in Education: “Civility is a very important
value, but discussions of civility in the university setting are sadly too often
code for wanting to shut down discussions that may offend students or
administrators. It would be a great service to students if it was explained to
them when they begin college that, although politeness may be nice, it is of
miniscule importance as compared to robust discussion. As we often joke, being
offended is what happens when you have your deepest beliefs challenged, and if
you make it through college without being offended, you should ask for your
money back. On a serious note, a look at the U.S. Supreme Court's First
Amendment jurisprudence will demonstrate that the government cannot require
civil speech or mandate conventions of decency (take a look at Cohen v.
California or Papish v. Board of Curators of the University of Missouri , to
name just a few). That being said, colleges and universities can *encourage*
students to dialogue civilly; they simply cannot *require* it.”
Moderator Gary Wilkens.
Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:09 pm Post subject:
"Wasn’t Ginsberg a member of such an organization?"
But he was never a member of our Board of Chancellors, so whatever
argument you're trying to make has no legs.
_________________
"Poetry gives us knowledge. It is a knowledge of ourselves in relation to the
world of experience, and to that world considered, not statistically, but in
terms of human purposes and values. ”
—Cleanth Brooks and Robert Penn Warren
Enmarge [G. Tod Slone].
Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:59 pm Post subject: Established-Order Poets love
to censor dissident poets...
Yes, I have been censored from the Perchik page! Isn't that wonderful! Now, ole
Perchie can only be exposed to happy-face critique! Oh, yes, that will help him
grow! But is it LEGAL? I'm looking into it. No response from any of you
regarding my being CENSORED. Am I surprised? Not at all.
Wilkons, yours is a politician’s WITTY (haw!) non-response. Now, Esther, why
would you have put The American Dissident on your list? Are you another
beaver-poet shot-gunning poems out right and left in the hope of fame… and who
doesn’t read guidelines? As a professor, allow me to teach you that one ought to
read guidelines prior to submitting ones work. Larwar, are you what is known as
a Ditto Poet?
Question: How do you, all of you, justify your likely love for Thoreau or
Emerson or Solzhenitsyn or Ibsen or Jeffers, yet hate what they wrote about the
cowardly herd?
Answer: You actually think you are not part of that herd. But can’t you see how
you’ve all banded together on this little forum… so naturally herd-like?
Question: Why do you DISDAIN (and wish to CENSOR) someone like me, who does
question and challenge the canon, all the lit clubby clubs, etc.?
Answer: Well, it’s obvious.
Hatrabbit (i.e., Mr. Anonymous), your writing is barely sensible. I don’t even
know how to respond to it. Well, maybe you need to get a degree, eh? I’ve got a
doctorate from a French university! Now, how will you put that one down? What
kind of WIT will you ooze out? Yes, Hatrabbit, you must think you do a good
witty job at ranking me out, stating I hide behind two quotes. But how asinine
can one get?
Writing to all of you has been like writing to one brick wall of solidarity of
incomprehension. You can’t even seem to comprehend a simple sentence, as in “let
your life be a counterfriction to stop the machine.” You have to diminish it
with a childish witless rank-out, thinking oh how witty you are. But poetry is
more than mere high-brow wit… or at least it ought to be.
You need to diminish me because I do stand up and away from the herd, the poet
herd, the academy herd, the academic herd, the consensus herd. Democracy will
die with your help.
Moderator Gary Wilkens.
Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:09 pm Post subject:
Yes, I have been censored from the Perchik page! Isn't that wonderful! Now, ole
Perchie can only be exposed to happy-face critique! Oh, yes, that will help him
grow! But is it LEGAL? I'm looking into it. No response from any of you
regarding my being CENSORED. Am I surprised? Not at all.
Because you weren't censored. If we had wanted to censor you, we could have
simply banned you from the site. Easy as fishing. Instead, we moved your posts
to a forum with a much higher traffic, where your ideas will get more play, not
less. As for the posts that were lost, nobody will molest them if you simply
re-post them.
Wilkons, yours is a politician’s WITTY (haw!) non-response.
No, it's a logical and factual one.
Question: How do you, all of you, justify your likely love for Thoreau or
Emerson or Solzhenitsyn or Ibsen or Jeffers, yet hate what they wrote about the
cowardly herd?
Huh?
Answer: You actually think you are not part of that herd. But can’t you see
how you’ve all banded together on this little forum… so naturally herd-like?
Question: Why do you DISDAIN (and wish to CENSOR) someone like me, who does
question and challenge the canon, all the lit clubby clubs, etc.?
Answer: Well, it’s obvious.
Again: huh? wha? Ask an real question, get an real answer.
You need to diminish me because I do stand up and away from the herd, the
poet herd, the academy herd, the academic herd, the consensus herd. Democracy
will die with your help.
No, we diminish you because you rant and rave and bait and attack, while
showing no respect for our simple guidelines. We are within the rights given us
in those guidelines in banning you already. Explain why we haven't, if we are
indeed as sinister as you think
_________________
"Poetry gives us knowledge. It is a knowledge of ourselves in relation to the
world of experience, and to that world considered, not statistically, but in
terms of human purposes and values. ”
—Cleanth Brooks and Robert Penn Warren
Last edited by G.Wilkens on Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
Moderator
Stephen Bunch. Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:17 pm Post subject:
Mr. Slone,
I think you'll be history here soon because of your penchant for personal
attacks unrelated, as far as I can discern, to any discussion of poets and
poetry. But since you raised the matter, if you're disturbed by Allen Ginsberg's
proclivities and associations, I also wonder about the curious coincidence of
your journal's title, American Dissident, and the National Alliance's
American Dissident Voices, a radio broadcast by now defunct William Pierce and
his neo-nazi organization, the National Alliance. Of course, you're free to
associate with neo-nazis. That freedom is guaranteed by our Constitution. But I
do weigh people's opinions and character by the company they keep. Anyway,
enquiring minds want to know. It's been fun, old stick. Have a good life.
Stephen Bunch (my real name)
_________________
"I'm looking for the gold tooth in God's crooked smile." (Jim White)
Moderator
Hatrabbit. Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:27 pm Post subject:
Dave Rowley--google me, it's
fascinating.
Or learn all about me at
www.threatstotheworldasweknowit.com
_________________
"Tell me about the dream where we pull the bodies out of the lake / and dress
them in warm clothes again" Richard Siken
Moderator
Gary Wilkens. Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:45 pm Post subject:
Gary Charles Wilkens
http://www.gcwilkens.com/
_________________
"Poetry gives us knowledge. It is a knowledge of ourselves in relation to the
world of experience, and to that world considered, not statistically, but in
terms of human purposes and values. ”
— Cleanth Brooks and Robert Penn Warren
Enmarge
[G. Tod Slone]. Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 3:06 am Post subject: CENSORSHIP
AND THE POET CONFORMIST
Wilkens,
Perhaps I shall do a cartoon on you. Your paltry response to my being censored
merit it! Perhaps one day you will be Lit Rogue of the month (www.theamericandissident.org/LitToon.htm).
So, rejoice!
You need to examine the legislation in place. It was because I shoved that
legislation under the snout of the censoring moderator, Chrissie put me back up
on your website. It is senseless to try to reason with you. But the law
certainly made Chrissie reasonable! Haw!
Your reasoning is purposefully fraudulent and makes no sense at all regarding my
argument about being censored from the Perchik page. You are a 501 3c nonprofit
organization and cannot censor on a whim and “politeness” is a whim. “Because
you weren't censored. If we had wanted to censor you, we could have simply
banned you from the site. Easy as fishing. Instead, we moved your posts to a
forum with a much higher traffic, where your ideas will get more play, not less.
As for the posts that were lost, nobody will molest them if you simply re-post
them.”
Your guidelines are a sham, a transparent front put forth to enable you to
CENSOR anybody who does expression a non-happy face opinion and who is IGNORANT
OF THE LAW. Read my statement on it! Chrissie did and so did her bosses. YOU
NEED TO REVAMP THOSE GUIDELINES IN ACCORD WITH THE FIRST AMENDMENT. Vigorous
debate is far more important than your arbitrary politeness oblige. Don’t you
get it? All those speech codes enacted by academic clones are being struck down
in the courts, one after the other. Your code is null and void!
To call my argumentation “rant and rave and bait and attack, while showing no
respect for our simple guidelines” is as unoriginal as shooting the messenger
gets. It is also sadly typical of educated people who shudder before someone who
does have the courage to express views not shared by the herd. My statement was
a simple criticism of the rampant blandness of poets and poetry in America,
Attorney Perchik, Poetaster of the Month, included. It was censored from that
page.
“We are within the rights given us in those guidelines in banning you already.
Explain why we haven't.” YOU KNOW DAMN WELL WHY YOU HAVEN’T BANNED ME. YOU ARE A
NONPROFIT ORGANIZATION SUPPORTED BY GOVERNMENT FUNDS AND THAT PROHIBITS
YOU—contrary to your ignorant, self-assured and self-satisfied statement—FROM
CENSORING CITIZENS DUE TO ARBITRARY DESIGNATION OF IMPOLITENESS. CAPICHE? If you
had censored me in totum, I would have brought a legal case against your POETRY
INSTITUTION. You will not censor me for that reason. Your bosses will not permit
you to do so! And I laugh at you for thinking you can and will censor me. Shame
on you, an educated man! Yeah, just call it RANT… but you haven’t the guts to
censor and ban.
Why should I show YOU any RESPECT at all? You merit no respect. Your response to
my statement on being censored from the Perchik page was and is pitiful.
Unlike you, I do not threaten to censor. You are much more the Nazi than I. So,
Mr. Wilkons, it is time you stopped threatening to eliminate me (“you’ll be
history here soon”) from your forum. If I shall be history, it will be my
decision, NOT YOURS.
Did you and your buddies learn from the educational system how to divert
argumentation? On Ginsberg, for example, you and they couldn’t even comprehend
the point I clearly made. Is there any point in my repeating it? Probably not.
But I’ll repeat: Your guidelines for politesse stipulate NO “OFFENSIVE MATERIAL”
and NO “ADVERTIZEMENTS.” Whether G. was a Chancellor or not is entirely
immaterial. He was a member of your org and a member of another org that
promoted sex with children. But for you, that’s fine and dandy, while my putting
forth an opinion IS NOT.
The repeated statement “Poetry gives us knowledge” must be a farce because it
certainly didn’t give you any knowledge regarding your right to censor. You are
a sad example of our educational system. Your argumentation is entirely faulty
and diversionary. Here’s another example: “American Dissident, and the National
Alliance's American Dissident Voices… blablabla.” There is no connection
whatsoever! But isn’t it wonderful that you would connect American AND dissident
with something BAD! Perhaps you need to begin a journal and call it THE AMERICAN
CONFORMIST. Yes, you’d make a wonderful editor of a journal like that. POETS
SHOULD NOT BE CONFORMISTS, THEY SHOULD BE DISSIDENTS! Capiche?
Clearly, you and yours are in a very weak position for you fear any hard
criticism of your milieu… and for good reason.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
Then Site Manager Klocek-Lim
sent me an email.
From: chrissiekl
To: enmarge
Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:53 pm
Subj: moved posts
I suggest you read the
Terms of Use.
_________________
—Christine, Site Admin—
"Savour, taste, enjoy. Poetry is not made to be sucked up like a child's
milkshake. . ." —Stephen Fry
From: enmarge
To: chrissiekl
Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:39 pm
Subj: moved posts
I suggest you study the First
Amendment... and the history of censorship! I guess one of your bosses had a
quick talk with you, eh? I wrote to all of them!
Write to my email address, not to this spot if you want me to read what you
write.
todslone@yahoo.com
From: enmarge
To: chrissiekl
Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:40 pm
Subj: moved posts
Read that email I reposted on censorship and 501 3c organisations. Read it! Then
tell me what I should do. How despicable you've been, truly...
From: enmarge
To: chrissiekl
Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:47 pm
Subj: moved posts
You need to also define the word "politely," which, if left undefined, is
another of those words you seem to favor to support censorship. Well, at least
you now know that you cannot censor me on a whim because the law forbids
nonprofit organizations from doing so. I am happy I was able to teach you
something today, Chrissie.
From: enmarge
To: chrissiekl
Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:54 pm
Subj: moved posts
I will still be looking into
the legality of you censoring my comments from the Perchik page. Why not ask
Perchik about that? It is as if you are shielding him from seeing any criticism
of his work. Shame on you!
……………………………………………………………………….
The next day when I went to check out the forum, I found
this:
Critical Information
You have been
banned from this forum.
Please contact the webmaster or board administrator for more information.
CENSORED a second
time... permanently
ALL MATERIAL ON THIS SITE IS COPYRIGHT ©G. Tod
Slone, 2007, The American Dissident
www.theamericandissident.org.
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